For the crucial point of the time the Alarm was raised by Kate McCann on the 3rd May there are eight independent witnesses apart from the Tapas-9:
Stephen Carpenter →statement
Time: 21:15↔21:30 (average 21:23)
Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine, Ocean Club guest Stephen Carpenter and his wife left the Tapas bar to go home: “We walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi-circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I. They were about six metres away from me and I calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling “Madeleine, Madeleine”, this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance”.
Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja →statement
Time: 21:20↔21:40 (average 21:30)
21:20, Executive Chef A.E.G.F.P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few metres away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples…
Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom →statement
Time: 21:30↔21:40 (average 21:35)
Property manager B.J.J.W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21:30 – 21:40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlántico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in Praia da Luz, and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21:45 – 21:50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira →statement1 →statement2 →statement3
Time: around 21:45 (average 21:45)
Dinner finished at around 21:45 and some minutes passed where waiter R.A.E.D.L.O. looked towards the table but saw no one—his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;
Fitness instructor/Waiter J.R.S. →statement
Time: 21:30 ↔ 22:00 (average 21:45)
Between 21.30 and 22:00 Fitness instructor/Waiter J.R.S. went over to the table and joked with Dianne Webster: “They've left you alone?” She responded more of less with these words: “No, they went to see if the little girl was there.” I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man, who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21:30 and 22:00 but do not remember with certainty.
Maria Manuela Martins da Silva →statement
Time: before ←21:58
M.M.M.d.S. declares that on the night 03 May 2007, she left the apartment at around 21:58 - she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;….After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. …States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment…
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis →statement
Time: 21:30 ↔ 22:00 (average 21:45)
Receptionist Ocean Club H.J.S.L. was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 21:30 and 22:00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. He immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
Maria Jose dos Santos Rosa →statement
Time: before ←22:00
Bar chef M.J.d.S.R. heard about it on that night at about 22:00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millennium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
Heribert Genreith
Jane Tanner
Member of the Tapas 7. J. Tanner is the originator of the so called Tanner Sighting.
Jane Michelle Tanner was interviewed two times by the PJ and third and last by LP. Following links and extracts regarding the day 3rd May:
→04-May-2007 “…When she went to the beach she saw GM and KH having a personal tennis lesson. No children were with them. Around 17h15 she saw KH pass the beach (7) “jogging”, she having waved. Russell, Matthew and David left the beach a little earlier to go to the tennis court (8), it was men's tennis evening. When the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 18.20, they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry on court. They stayed there talking to them until about 20.30 (sic). Gerald behaved normally. She thinks Kate was in the apartment (1) putting the children to bed. At about 19.00 they all went back to their own apartments with the children. The witness bathed her children, read them a story and put them to bed. Evie who was unwell and having trouble sleeping, stayed with her father, who had arrived in the meantime. The witness went for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at about 20.30.
When she arrived at the restaurant several members of the group were already there, without their children. They were all presumably sleeping. At about 21.00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, having got Evie to sleep. For this reason and because Fiona, David and Diane only arrived at about 21.00, the dinner, reserved for 20.30, only began after 21.00. Normally, every 15 minutes a member from each apartment would go and check the bedrooms of the respective children to see if everything was all right. During dinner everything went well. Everyone was in a good mood. She remembers that at about 21.10 Gerald left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to check on the children. Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays. They played tennis with him. She passed by them knowing that Gerry had already been in the apartment (1) to check his children.
Meanwhile a man appeared carrying a child [A] , with a hurried walk, it being this detail together with the fact that the child dressed in pyjamas, without being wrapped up in a blanket, that caught her attention. She only managed to see him from the side, with the child in his arms. She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking, having seen this person step off the pavement that borders on the apartment block where they were staying and rapidly cross the road. The entrance to the apartment building (1) is exactly at the place (street) where the individual appeared from.
After checking on her daughters, she returned to the restaurant. On her way back Gerry was no longer talking in the place where she had seen him. When she arrived at the restaurant Gerry was already there, accompanied by his wife, Kate. About 15-20 minutes later, her husband Russell and Matthew left to check on the children. As her daughter Evie was restless and crying, Russell stayed in the apartment. Meanwhile Matthew went to check his child and those of Kate and Gerry. According to what he said, he saw the twins but he did not see Madeleine. As there was no noise he supposed that all was well and returned to the restaurant. Matthew informed the witness that Russell had stayed in the apartment. After having quickly eaten her main course, the witness went to her apartment in order to take over from Russell, so that he could have his dinner. When she was in the apartment, at about 22.00- 22.15 she heard Kate and Fiona shouting and saying that Madeleine had disappeared. When asked, she says that she thinks it was Kate who discovered the girl to be missing, the witness is not sure due not being in the restaurant at that time…. ”
[A] “Personal description: Dark skinned individual, male sex, aged between 35-40, slim physical appearance, about 1.70m tall. Very dark, thick hair, longer at the back (she could only see him from behind). He was wearing linen type cloth trousers, beige to golden in colour, a “duffy” sic type jacket (but not that thick). His shoes were dark in colour, classic type. He had a hurried walk. He was carrying a child, who was lying on both his arms, in front of his chest. By the way he was dressed, he gave her the impression that he was not a tourist, because he was very “warmly dressed”. About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain. As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police. When requested, she drew a sketch, which is joined to this statement. When asked, she says she would probably be able to identify the individual she saw, being able to identify him from the side and from his manner of walking.”
→10-May-2007 “…. Since it was asked of her, she affirmed that she had no knowledge that the McCanns had left the patio sliding door open, suspecting, however, that they did because she saw, several times, the couple climb the steps at the rear of the apartment. She never entered apartments of other couples limiting herself only to listen for any noise, putting her ear to the children's bedroom window at the front of the apartment. ……She thinks that all the other couples entered by the front doors of the building/apartments, except for the McCanns. She is not sure if they always entered the apartment from the rear. Questioned, she relates that, from memory, she always saw the blinds of the McCann apartment totally closed, it being a place where she placed her ear to know if any of them were asleep.…..
In the tourist complex last Sunday, 30 April, she net a couple she knew from Exeter, Jim and C. G., with their son of 20 months, B.G. She knew they had travelled on the same day as her, on a different flight. Asked, she relates that they had a hired car, not knowing the brand, model or colour. He (Jim) liked to surf and that was why he had hired the car. Not untrusting, she never suspected that anyone might do harm to any of the children, never having observed any [such] behaviour by clients, workers or other people with [either] the group or children. Of the group only DP and FP knew/had been to her home at the above address in Exeter. None of the other group members had ever been to her home.
…As usual at 17:00, they were at the children's tea with Kate, the time at which they would go to find [pick up] the children. With Kate and Gerry she went to the tennis courts where the adults and children of the group played [seriously] and played [for fun], respectively, with each other. They were at the courts until 19h00. At that time the men of the group (though she was not sure if GM was there) stayed a while longer to play tennis, the women went to their respective apartments to get [the children] ready for bed. 20-30 minutes later the men arrived. They got themselves ready for dinner. At 20h35, as El didn't want to sleep, ROB went to the restaurant alone. Around 20h45, El fell asleep and the deponent also left for the restaurant. When she arrived everyone else was already there, except for Rachael who was feeling poorly and stayed in her apartment. Her husband, MO, was at the restaurant. She doesn't recall if DP and FP were already there. It is usual for them to always be last to arrive, since they were always late. About dinner, she relates that nothing abnormal happened regarding the checking of the bedrooms, it having been done in turns as usual. Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and MBM (both children of GM and KH), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when KH commented at the table that MBM had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred.
…..Around 17h15 she saw KH “jogging” on the beach, having waved [a hand]. Her husband ROB, MO and DP left the beach a little earlier they having gone to the tennis courts, it was the night of the men's tennis. When she, together with the friends and children, returned from the beach, at 18h20, they went to the tennis courts having seen that all the men, including GM, were on the court. They stayed to talk to them them for about 20/30 minutes. GM comported himself as usual. She thinks that KH was in the apartment getting the children ready for bed. Around 19h00 each one went to their apartment with the children. She bathed her daughters, she read them a story, she put them to bed. Ev was sick and had difficulty with sleeping stayed with her father, who had arrived in the meantime, (on the previous night the deponent stayed later in the bedroom because her daughter had difficulty in sleeping; on this night it was her husband's turn). She left the apartment and went to the Tapas, for dinner, around 20h30. When she arrived at the restaurant there were already some adult members of the group, namely the McCanns, without their children. They [the children] were supposedly sleeping. Around 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, Ev, meanwhile, having fallen asleep. As usual, the Paynes and mother, were late. A few minutes to 21h00 MO left the restaurant and went to the apartment area, saying that he would 'hurry up' the couple that was already late enough. She related that MO, on the way, took the opportunity and looked in on the children's bedrooms. She relates that MO passed the Paynes and DW on the way, but, benefiting from them already being up and on their way [i.e. because he did not have to go all the way up to their apartment], he made a circuit to listen at the homes, detecting nothing abnormal.
They ordered dinner and waited for the starters when, about 21h10, GM left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children. Five or ten minutes later the deponent left, having gone to her apartment to check that all was well with her girls. At that time she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays. He played tennis with them. She doesn't know if they saw her giving the assurance that, on her part, she did not start a conversation with either of them. She passed them knowing that GM had already been in the apartment to see the children. She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child. Prompted, she clarified that the reason she left, following GM only 5/10 minutes later, she relates that she did it because she knew that he would only go to his apartment, reiterating that she checked her daughters regularly. Questioned about the path she took on the way to her home, she relates that she left the reception at the entrance to the Tapas/pool area and went up the pavement to the corner, having entered the apartment by the front door, which was, as already stated, locked. The only access to the interior of the home is by that door, seeing that the windows and the sliding patio door to the lounge were locked from the inside, it being this way that they are only passable if they are opened, also from the inside.
Asked [about] the route of GM to his home when he went to check on his children, she relates that she does not know, but that she knows that he, at times, accessed the home by the glass lounge door which was only closed but not locked. She explains that this was the easiest and fastest way to enter the McCann apartment as they have a stairway up to the veranda which is next to the pavement, saving thereby half [the distance of] the route. Questioned, she relates that all the couples had to access their respective apartments by the front door, except the McCanns since they were the only ones who left the glass door unlocked. Prompted to say if she checked the state of the windows and external blinds of the McCann children's bedroom when she went to her house, she relates that no, she did not look in that direction, hence they might already have been open without her having noticed. After having gone to see the child she returned to the restaurant. On her return GM was no longer talking where she had seen him. When she arrived at the restaurant GM was already seated at the table accompanied by his wife KH and all the others. Between 15 to 20 minutes later her husband ROB and MO left, together, and went to see their respective children. As her daughter Ev was restless and crying ROB stayed in the bedroom. Meanwhile, MO went to check his children and those of GM and KH. According to what he said, he saw the twins but he did not see MBM probably because he did not enter the bedroom. As he heard no noise he left presupposing that all was well, returning to the restaurant. MO told her that ROB had stayed in the bedroom.
After having quickly eaten the main course she went to the apartment to take the place of her husband so that he could finish his meal. Her husband returned to the restaurant. Some time later, she doesn't know precisely how long, she looked through the lounge window towards the restaurant area, ascertaining, strangely, that there was no-one seated at the table it being that it was still very early for all of them to have already finished the meal. Later she heard voices of KH and FP who were in the corridor in front of the bedroom windows and who called, desperately, for Madeleine. When she saw her it was KH herself who told the deponent that Madeleine had disappeared, not clarifying in what circumstances, continuing her search. The deponent stayed in her apartment because her daughter, El, was asleep and the smallest, Ev, was still awake and complaining. As it was asked of her she relates that she did not go into the McCann apartment therefore she does not know the state of the bedroom nor any details of what happened that night. Now, already she had heard many versions or theories of what could have happened, but, for her part, she can only affirm that the man that she saw carrying the child was, in her belief, associated with the disappearance of MBM.
She was then confronted with the fact that when her husband ROB and MO went to check their respective children the window already might have been open and MBM probably no longer in her bed. She clarifies that she cannot answer for them but thinks that MO had not entered the McCann children's bedroom, limiting himself to hear that there was no crying and that the twins were in their beds. Asked if he couldn't have checked for noise at the bedroom window, as had been done many times, the deponent clarifies that MO had assured the parents that he would go to check the state of the children from inside the house. For this he went up the pavement to the main entrance of the apartments, entered [his] house and turned to leave, descended the pavement again to the rear entrance of the McCann flat, climbed the steps and accessed the lounge through the glass door (that was not locked). Anyway, a better understanding of these details can only be provided by MO himself.
Confronted with the information that the [tracker] dog teams had followed/followed the scent trails in which, purportedly, MBM had not passed the intersection where she indicated a man carried a child, she affirmed, immediately, that she was not lying, maintaining the honesty of her initial version. That, indeed, there had passed in front of her a man carrying, in his arms, a barefoot child. At the time she had not paid him much attention because it is common, at the OC, for children to pass in the arms of their parents between the cr?he and their respective homes, when they have collected them from the baby-sitting service. Only it was strange that the child had no cover (blanket) and the way the man walked, rapidly, and how he was dressed, the trousers were slightly wide their entire length, being straight. They (trousers) were as to colour, identical to “corticine” (a type of floor covering), “chino” [Chinese] style. As for the coat it was dark coloured, she was not able to specify what, seeming to be the same material as the trousers, it being a type of “anorak”. As for the footwear she relates that she cannot confirm with certainty but [they were] shoes with a light “heel”.
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep. Subsequently, she had no doubts that it could have been MBM because, through conversations with FP in which [FP] described the pyjamas that MBM had worn that night, which coincided with those she had seen. Questioned why she had not commented to KH what she had seen that night, namely that she had seen a male individual who carried a child with pink pyjamas, she relates that she always avoided making this comment to the McCanns so as not to torture them more in their suffering. She swore “by everything most sacred” that what she said is true, namely that she saw an individual with a child in his arms. Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres. She accepts that, at that moment, although the event had called her attention, she didn't lay any great stress on it for the reasons already explained.
Regarding the most and best information that might help the present investigation she said she remembered on one night (she thinks it was Tuesday, 1 May) there were two couples, supposedly English, that dined in the Tapas restaurant. After [their meal] they left, [JT] not knowing if they participated in the quiz game that Mark Warner put on during the meal. The game consisted of a MW worker asking questions about films, namely quotations with the objective of identifying the films. At the end the tables were given a questionnaire that gave the source and a result. The first prize was a jug of sangria, curiously won by the deponent's table. She remembered only [that] the agency lady commented on the the two couples who had left the game before the final result was known. She never saw those couples before nor since that day. She does not know if they were Mark Warner clients…..”
→04-August-2007
Reply “Erm, so I can remember saying to Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because they’ve changed the times for us and now you’re not bloody going’, you know, that sort of, it was that sort of thing. So I think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to the men’s tennis”. 4078 “Had Kate and Gerry joined you at that time?” Reply “No, they didn’t come down to the beach at all because they’d had their, erm, they’d had their private tennis lesson or whatever it was, so it was quite late in the day, so they hadn’t”.
…….. 4078 “Right”. Reply “Yeah. Erm, so, yeah, we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, but that was probably, by that stage that was probably, erm, half seven’ish probably I’d say, by the time we, we went back, if not maybe even a bit later, I’m not sure, but around then, around the seven o’clock mark”. 4078 “Nothing different to the rest of the holiday really?” Reply “No, no, no, just, erm, yeah, it was the same, we’d done that almost every night. I think, I think both of them had a bit of a screaming fit that night, because I can remember them being quite bad when they got into bed, because I think they just lost it. And also I think Ella was, because Russell was still playing tennis she was like ‘Where’s daddy, why is he not putting me to bed’, so there was a bit of that as well. But I can remember them being, being a bit, err, it was tiredness, they were doing so much in the day that they did kick off a bit when we got back to the room, but. Erm, so, yeah, I think Russell came back, I think they were supposed to finish at half seven and it was around, I think they had a bit of, but it went on a bit longer, so they were probably back about, he was probably back about quarter to eight. And then put the, and they weren’t, Ella and Evie weren’t in bed at that point, erm, I think they, it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them into bed. And then I went down to the restaurant just after half eight. There’s another, another thing that I was feeling bad about was, erm, we’d got this block booking for half past eight, but because Dave and Fi are so rubbish at getting anywhere, again they’re always late, it was edging back every night, so we were sort of getting to the place of sort of quarter to nine, nine o’clock, when everybody was getting there and, as I said earlier, a lot of people were going earlier, you know, earlier in the evening, so I was very conscious we were sort of keeping all the waiters there late, you know, not later, but later than they probably would, would normally be there, so. So I think by that stage we knew what the menu was, so I’d got Russell’s order but he stayed, because the children had only been asleep for quarter of an hour, he stayed back in the room for a bit longer, just to check that they were definitely asleep before, before he came, came to join, you know, everybody else”.
4078 “Yeah”. Reply “So, yeah, I think I went down about, it was just after half eight, so probably twenty-five to nine’ish, I’m not, but it was, it was quite close to half eight because, as I say, I was very conscious that we were all being so late all the time and it was getting later and later”. 4078 “And who was there when you got there?” Reply “Kate and Gerry were there already and they were talking to, I don’t know their names, but they were talking to the two people that Gerry played tennis with in, erm, in his group, who were sitting in the restaurant”.
….. 4078 “You say when you got there Gerry and Kate were talking to another couple from tennis?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Do you remember where they were sitting?” Reply “The other couple?” 4078 “All four of them”. Reply “Erm, Kate and Gerry were standing up, so they hadn’t sat down at this point, they were standing. So this was say our table, this other couple were here, I think, and Kate and Gerry were standing here, talking to them”. 4078 “Okay”. Reply “Erm, so, yeah, I’d got down and I think then, soon after I’d got down we sat down at our table, not our table, but, yeah, sat down on our table. Then, I’m trying to think who came next. I think next it was, erm, Matt and Rachael I think came next, yeah, Matt and Rachael came down next together, the two of them, probably a few minutes after, after me, I don’t think it was that long, that long after me. And then Russell came down, probably about quarter to’ish, I think it was, probably sort of five or ten minutes after, after me. And then it was getting quite late again and Dave, Fi and Dianne were nowhere to be seen, so Matt actually, I think it had got to the point when it was like ‘Oh Matt go and’ and Matt said he’d go back and chivvy them along. I think Fi had actually been for a run which is why it had taken, why she was, they were taking longer. Erm, yeah, so Matt went back, erm, but he actually met them coming down. But I think because he was up he thought while he was up he’d go and have a listen just to check, you know, there was no noise from Grace. I think he must have actually been a bit longer, I think we’d actually been there for about quarter of an hour before Dave and Fi, you know, all of us had been there for about ten or fifteen minutes before they actually appeared, so”.
4078 “So you got there then, Rachael and Matt have arrived?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Then Russell came?” Reply “Then Russell”. 4078 “And then after Matt had gone up to chase David and Fiona they arrived anyway?” Reply “Yeah, they all arrived, yeah”. 4078 “Can you picture who was sitting where on the table?” Reply “Erm, I was sitting next to Kate on one side and I think it was Rachael, I think it was Rachael the other side. Erm, yeah, I think it was, erm, so it was Kate, me, Rachael and then I think, erm, I’m trying to think where everybody else was. Erm, I think Dianne was next to Rachael, here. I really can’t, I can’t really, I can’t picture exactly, but I know, I know I was next to Kate, that’s in my head, and I think it was Rachael the other side, the other side of me. And I think Russell might have been the other side of Kate or Matt was next”. 4078 “Who or what were you facing?” Reply “I was facing the, erm, I was almost facing the bar area, so I was sort of, yeah, I had my, to where the apartments was, I was sort of perpendicular”.
……. 4078 “Did the other couples discuss any of their children, anything worthy of comment?” Reply “Erm, no, I don’t think so. I think, I think Kate and Gerry might have said theirs were tired too because normally they, as I say, normally they would have probably still, when we’d all been, after tea, but they’d actually probably gone to bed a bit earlier than normal I think. I think when I’d said to Kate about Ella having a complete flip, I think, you know, she sort of said ‘Oh yeah, they were, they were tired’, but nothing. I mean, again, I could be just making that up, to be honest. But I think everybody was saying their children were tired, you know, because of having such full days, you know, I mean, they were sailing and doing all these things that they don’t normally do, so they were they were tried”. 4078 “And up until that point was everybody happy with the child care checks that”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “The checks on the children?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think this night it was probably, we did checks more regularly early on than, than probably other, you know, or there seemed to be less time between checks. And I think that’s because they were bringing the food a lot quicker because we were late, I think they were like ‘Right, lets get the food out so we can get’, not get rid of them, but. So we were sort of, because I think when I went back to do the check it was probably less time after Russell had come than normal, you know, it wasn’t the strict half an hour, but I think it was because the food was coming and also I think with Evie not being quite, quite right, you know, we were making more, more checks. And thinking about it now, looking at this, I was probably less confident in the monitor, by the position of the table, I mean, it was only a short bit but, than other nights”. 4078 “Did anybody else amongst the group mention that they wanted to do checks more frequently?” Reply “No, not, no, no, I don’t think. No, I think they were more staggered, because other nights I think we’d all got there more or less at the same time or not over such a, but this night, because we’d all got there at such, erm, different times, you know, it was more, I think that’s why they were sort of probably a bit more staggered and at different, you know, not all going together at one particular time to do the check”. 4078 “More of a rolling check really?” Reply “Yeah, it was more of a, yeah”. 4078 “Right. And you have already that Matt had gone off to chase up David and Fiona?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “But then subsequently you think he must have gone and done the check?” Reply “Well he did, he met them coming down the road, so he thought, because he was up, he just literally went and listened. I know he listened at our window. And I don’t know whether he went in to see Grace, but I know he listened at Grace. And I don’t know whether he listened at Madeleine’s window at that point, but”.
……… 4078 “And how were things?” Reply “They were fine, completely normal, yeah”. 4078 “And then everybody arrived at slightly different times but by nine o’clock’ish everybody was there?” Reply “Yeah, everybody was there, yeah”. 4078 “And Matthew had gone off and done a check?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Because he had been up to see”. Reply “Yeah, to chivvy up, yeah”.
4078 “Right, okay. Now you have had your lunch, is there anything else that you need to say before we move on?” Reply “Erm, I don’t think so. I think just to, I was thinking, one thing I didn’t mention is at the, I’m not sure when, when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’. And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up. So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so. So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks. I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”. 4078 “Yeah. How did Kate seem when she mentioned that?” Reply “Fine, she was just sort of a bit, I think, you could see she was just a bit sort of concerned. I think, because it was sort of like ‘Oh I wonder if she did wake up’. I think she thought she hadn’t woken up really, Madeleine just was saying it. But she did, yeah, you could tell it was, she was a bit sort of more worried, you know, than other, other nights there’d never been anything, but obviously the fact she’d said that, sort of”.
4078 “Put it into mind?” Reply “Yeah, yeah”. 4078 “And you don’t remember exactly at what point that was said?” Reply “No, I think it was fairly early on, but, I mean, I don’t know whether it was, erm, I would think it would probably be early on. I think it was when, I don’t think everybody else was there when she said that, so that would suggest it was early on. But I can’t, that’s, that’s a recollection, I can’t say for sure”.
4078 “And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?” Reply “Umm”. 4078 “Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?” Reply “No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t. Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”. 4078 “That is not a lot in the course of the evening?” Reply “No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”. 4078 “Okay. Right, lets go back to the Thursday then. Everybody has sat down eventually and I take it the food has been ordered. Take me through then, as you can remember it, and take as much time as you need”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “To remember in as much detail as possible, because the more you say the less likely I am going to have come back and ask questions later”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “So there is no rush, just in your own time”.
Reply “Yeah. Erm, so, yeah, I think everybody, everybody arrived about nine o’clock. I think we ordered fairly, as soon as Dave and Fi arrived we sort of like ordered almost straight away I think. And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them. So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal. Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’. So Russ had sort of come down about quarter to. And I think at this point, I don’t know whether I knew that Matt had been and listened or what, so I remember saying to Russ ‘Shall I got and check’ and I remember at that time thinking ‘Oh can I persuade Russ to go and check so I don’t have to’. But, no, so, you know, I’ll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time”. 4078 “From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?” Reply “He wasn’t there at that point, no, no. So, erm, then I walked, so I just walked out the, erm, the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road. And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by. So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’” 4078 “Backtrack a little. How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?” Reply “Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid. So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone. I can’t say for sure, but”. 4078 “And from the time when you obviously didn’t feel it appropriate to persuade Russell to go and check”. Reply “Yeah, it was my turn”. 4078 “From the time you left the Tapas Bar, when you are talking, try and put yourself back there”. Reply “Umm”.
4078 “It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this. But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “I know it is a tall order”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “But just do the best you can”.
Reply “Yeah. Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road. I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then. Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so. Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak. Erm, and I walked, I was walking up the road and I can’t remember exactly, I know this, I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side. But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but. But they were talking quite (inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road. I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway. I think sort of”.
4078 “Is that the alleyway, sorry, would that be (inaudible)?” Reply “Yeah, sort of here. I thought they were sort of round this sort of bit here”. 4078 “Yeah, so on the plan that you have drawn can you put a cross where you”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “I know you are uncertain because you think Gerry’s recollection is different, but as far as you can remember”. Reply “Well I think one of them was in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he had the pram. And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way he was facing. No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing. And I thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just, just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of more by this alleyway. I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”. 4078 “So where would the apartment gate be then?” Reply “Probably here I should think”. 4078 “And that would lead down to the roadside door of their apartment or the poolside door of their apartment?” Reply “That leads to the poolside door”. 4078 “Right. So you think they were quite a bit further down?”
Reply “I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere within this, I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure. I don’t, I’m not sure, but they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to acknowledge them. Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head, you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’. And now obviously I wished I bloody had. But, you know, sort of, so I think, I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road than that side of the road”.
4078 “So you come out of the Tapas Bar and presumably you have walked along that way, have you?” Reply “Yeah, I’ve come out here, through the gate”.
4078 “And that is up the hill, is it?” Reply “And up the hill, yeah”. 4078 “And when you have gone past Gerry and Jez whereabouts have they been in relation to you?” Reply “If I’m walking this way, they were sort of”. 4078 “So they were to your right?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Okay. Go on”. Reply “So, yeah, so I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child. And obviously at that point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’, so to speak”. 4078 “Go back again. Pretend I don’t know anything about this”. Reply “Okay”. 4078 “Pretend it has not been in the papers”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Or, you know, I know we have discussed it between ourselves before (inaudible)”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “But, as far as you can, try and tell me as though I am somebody that doesn’t know anything about this”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “And you have walked up that hill, was it light or dark by that point?”
Reply “I think it was getting, I think it was getting dark, I can’t, yeah, it was definitely, because the lights, the street lights were on, so it was definitely, because it was quite, erm, it was quite orangy, I think they were was sort of like a bit of an orangy. It’s so hard to. Yeah, the street lights were definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to go’, but then I decided to go myself, so. So I think, I think it was, I think it was getting, it was dark”. 4078 “What about other people, what other noises?” Reply “No, I mean, there was no, apart from Gerry, well apart from Gerry and Jez there was nobody else around. And I think when you went down to the, often when we went down to the, erm, Tapas Bar there was people then because it was earlier and I think a lot of people had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then, whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town type, so. So, yeah, I didn’t really see anybody. I’d say, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people carrying their children around”. 4078 “What time would this have been around?” Reply “I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”. 4078 “So you have left the Tapas Bar and you have gone up that hill. What is there, is there a pavement and a road there?” Reply “Yeah, there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”. 4078 “Not ideal for flip-flop wearers?” Reply “No, because I do remember, I was almost looking at my, sort of not looking at my feet, but I was sort of padding, because obviously I was trying to get to do the check and get back as quick as possible as well, so I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.
4078 “Yeah”. Reply “Erm”. 4078 “And, like you say, there’s a kind of orange tint to things?” Reply “There was, yeah, that bit I do, and thinking, I’m thinking that more from leaving the table, I think this bit, I can remember sort of being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and everything being, being quite dark”. 4078 “So your intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella and Evie?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, just to check on them”. 4078 “Just your two?” Reply “Yeah, nobody else. Because, well Gerry was there, so I thought he’d just checked. Matt had checked when he’d, erm, been to chivvy up Dave and Fi. And we never checked on Dave and Fi because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so they didn’t check at all, so”. 4078 “So you were just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and get back as quick as you could?” Reply “For the starters, yeah. I mean, now you think. But, yeah, that was, that was just in my head, just get there, check they’re okay and come back”. 4078 “Okay. So when did you first notice Gerry standing there?” Reply “I would have probably noticed him as soon as I came, I mean, I don’t, this is not, I don’t think that distance is probably as far as that, you come out and he was, they were sort of, so almost, I’d probably say almost straight away. Again, I don’t know, but I, I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”. 4078 “You were there?” Reply “They were there and I was there”. 4078 “And you say you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?” Reply “They were, yeah. I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person. And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage. I mean, obviously I don’t know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.
4078 “And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?” Reply “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but. Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but. And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so. Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”. 4078 “Okay. And did you hear what they were saying?” Reply “No. No, not really. Not that I can remember”. 4078 “Were there any cars around there?” Reply “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”. 4078 “So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”. Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Are you conscious of any other movement?” Reply “It’s, it’s too long now. Erm, no, not really. I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side. The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”. 4078 “Go on to tell me about that then as slowly as you can?” Reply “Yes, erm, I was, I think I was nearing the top of the road, it’s a bit of a, I’m trying to think how, but I can’t really remember how much of a hill it is, but it is definitely a hill going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk across. And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare feet. And the thought that came into my head was, I’ll say when we’re in Leicester, our children were quite adaptable, and what we used to do is, we used to walk round to Dave and Fi’s house for, erm, the kids, for tea with the kids, the kids would play, we’d put them in a travel cot there and we’d sometimes stay a bit later and then carry the kids home, because it’s only, it’s like the next road. And we’d wrap them in a blanket or whatever, but you could always, their feet would fall, their feet would fall out the bottom and you’d think ‘Oh they’re going to get cold feet’ because they’d always wriggle. So one thing I thought was ‘Oh a bit of a bad parent like us, you know, that kid’s obviously being taken home’ or whatever. And I think that’s all, you know, that’s sort of, erm, I think that’s where the sort of I thought ‘Oh’, and that was the only reason I really clocked it I think. Because at that point I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, so it didn’t really, you know, and that didn’t. I’m making it sound like it really registered at the time, but it didn’t, that is literally, I thought ‘Oh’”.
4078 “That moment in time?” Reply “Yeah, I just thought that”. 4078 “That was in your mind?” Reply “Yeah, that is, erm, and I think at that point I did think as well, the way they were dressed wasn’t quite touristy. As I say, I mean, I looked a right state because I’d got Russell’s big jumper on, cropped trousers and flip-flips and, yeah, it was quite, you know, sort of cold and, and they looked more like they were prepared for the weather, you know, sort of thing. And I think when Jez, I think Jez had probably got shorts on and, you know, a jumper or something, and looked more like. He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose, or, so”. 4078 “Yes, us Brits abroad like to try and brave, if we’re on holiday we like to have, wear holiday clothes, don’t we?” Reply “Well”. 4078 (inaudible) Reply “Yeah, and I think it was just that factor was, it just didn’t look quite, you know, it just didn’t look quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home. As I say, this is all in hindsight”. 4078 “I know, yeah. And also you said that, you know, your immediate assumption or not probably even thought about it that much at the time, but you thought he might have been carrying a child home from the crèche?” Reply “Yeah, well I think you did see people, I mean, not that late at night, and, again, that should have made me think more, but especially sort of, you know, earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up again”. 4078 “Would that fit in with the direction he had come from?” Reply “Well, again, no. Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the crèche maybe. But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the crèche, going that way, so”. 4078 “Okay”.
Reply “So really, you know, at the time, I thought. And I think I did actually think ‘Oh a bit odd’, but never in a million years would I have thought ‘That’s Madeleine’. And I think, well Gerry was standing on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”. 4078 “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?” Reply “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but. But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”. 4078 “You can only say what you saw”. Reply “But I did see it, you know, I think that is the. I’m sorry”. 4078 “It’s alright”. Reply “But, you know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this, it’s”. 4078 “Yeah (inaudible)”. Reply “No, but the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t know what I can do to make them believe that. I’m sorry”. 4078 “Don’t worry. Take a moment”. Reply “But, you know, I think it’s, I do, I’m not the sort of person that would make this up, I don’t want any limelight, you know, you’ve only got to look, ask people that know me, I’m not”. 4078 “You wish you hadn’t seen it?” Reply “I just, yeah, I do, I wish I hadn’t. As I say, I wish I’d made Russell go at that point. I really wish I hadn’t seen this. But, you know, they have to, and, as I say, apart from Madeleine being found, the best thing that could happen to me is somebody coming and saying ‘No, you’re wrong Jane that wasn’t them, that was me carrying my child’, that is what, you know, I dream of happening, after Madeleine being found, you know”. 4078 “All you can do for now Jane is just say what you saw”.
……… Reply “Well, I mean, just whatever, they were, they were standing there. And, you know, just from, how I wouldn’t know they were standing there. And if I was trying to make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw me. Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and say they didn’t see me. It’s just, you know, it’s just, you know, I think that’s just, yeah, it’s just. I’m not making this up”. 4078 “Because of the Case that this is and it has been in the Press a lot and you have received a lot of comment and a lot of unwelcome comment as well I should imagine, that is bound to reflect on how you feel about”. Reply “Yeah, I know, yeah”. 4078 “Things. But our purpose today”. Reply “I know, I need to forget that”. 4078 “Is to go over again what you saw and not because we don’t believe you just because we need to go back through everything”. Reply “Yeah, I know, yeah. But I just want, you know, obviously from my point of view, I really want to make sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really not, and I just think it’s important. And I think that’s my frustration as well, if I’ve not been believed up to this point, I should have been asked this months ago. You should have put, you know, interrogated me to find out if I am lying months ago, you know, not just think ‘Oh no, she’s made that up’ because somebody didn’t see me walk by, I just think that is the point I want to make and to live with that, knowing that’s not being taken into account, is hard. Anyway, but, so I just want to make that point”.
……… 4078 “Right. Okay. So you have seen Gerry and you have seen Jez?” Reply “So this person, he walked across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking quite purposefully”. 4078 “Where were they, I was going to exactly, but exactly, in as far as you can remember?” Reply “They were sort of, I think I spotted them sort of in the middle, sort of here’ish or, I don’t, I mean, I can’t say for sure, but sort of more sort of from that angle and then they were carrying on that way”. 4078 “And was that, is there another pavement there, on the junction?” Reply “No, they were on, there’s a junction, this is sort of the road and they were walking along the side of the pavement, then I would then walk along”. 4078 “So they were on the same side that you were about to walk along?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Right. And when you first became aware of this man holding the child, if you can try and picture in your mind, as I am sure you have done over and over again, and start from the top of his head and work your way down and tell me what he looked like?” Reply “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?” 4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’. And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’. And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper. But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but” 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head. And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than. And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”. 4078 “And what colours?”
Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”. 4078 “You know the artist’s impression that you”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “That has been circulated a lot. How happy are you with that?” Reply “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right. I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”. 4078 “I must come back and talk about that when we have finished going through everything”. Reply “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”. 4078 “What about the height of the man?” Reply “Erm, phew, well, you know, I did it on the, I sort of pointed out where it was on the person that interviewed me originally and, erm, sort of, not six foot but taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten. But I think that had got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my statement, so I think it came out actually lower. But I think it was sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.
4078 “Okay. And his build?” Reply “Medium, well sort of just normal build. As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but. And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of. So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”. 4078 “And you said earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used, walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”. Reply “Purposefully”. 4078 “Purposefully”. Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Did you notice anything else about the way he walked?” Reply “Not really, just that it was very, as I say, it did seem quite a very, you know, a purposeful. And also the way he was carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking them up to put them into another bed or something, it is the way I would pick them up if they were asleep, because it’s, normally you would imagine you would carry them over your shoulder or something. So, again, in hindsight, that was probably a bit of an odd way to be, you know, be carrying, but”. 4078 “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
Reply “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”. 4078 “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?” Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet. But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description. And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas. And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas. Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”. 4078 “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?” Reply “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
4078 “And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?” Reply “Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink. That’s, that’s what I thought at the time. It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”. 4078 “It is very difficult”. Reply “I think that is hard for me to actually”. 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “To think now because I can, I can see them now”. 4078 “Because you know what actually they would have been if it had have been Madeleine?” Reply “Yeah, exactly, yeah, so I can’t really go back to thinking what they were”. 4078 “It is very difficult. What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?” Reply “Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep. I mean, they was definitely, you know, they were, as you would imagine if the child was asleep. But, you know, that’s all, that’s all I can, like I say, it was more just the, the fact they were, you know, you could see them”. 4078 “And the way you have held your hands like that, were the feet side-by-side like that?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “So the child would have been held on its back?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “And you say that they were very relaxed as though they were asleep?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, they were not, there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep. So, again, if you’d imagine somebody had been just, you know, taken out of their bed or something you’d imagine they’d be, but, no, they were very, you know, asleep”.
4078 “How long do you think it was that you had them in sight?” Reply “Erm, phew, not that, I mean, I did, I think I did go like that after they’d gone, so it probably wasn’t, phew, it’d be seconds, wouldn’t it, it’d be just like, phew, a few seconds and then as I got to the top I think I went like that, which I think is when I noticed more that they were walking quite quick. But, no, I mean, not, you know, not, not that long at all”. 4078 “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?” Reply “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”. 4078 “How far away from you were they at the closest point?” Reply “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”. 4078 “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?” Reply “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
4078 “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”. 4078 “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”. Reply “I know. But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”. 4078 “A passing interest, yeah?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Right. Okay. Are you okay?” Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “So the man and the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where that goes towards?” Reply “Erm, well it’s just this road, I think it’s, erm, I’d be here, so they’re walking up here. Say that’s the top of the road there, so they’re walking along here”. 4078 “And what is that in the direction of, do you know, where does that ultimately go to?” Reply “That sort of goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to get out of the town or so to speak. You sort of go up here and then back and that will take you to, to the crèche”. 4078 “Okay”. Reply “And the sort of car park is here. These bits here are sort of the car parky bit”. 4078 “And when you say you saw them walk down and you might have turned back as well, whereabouts were they at the point where you turned back?” Reply “Erm, I’d say probably about there. They were, well round this bit, they weren’t as far as the car parky bit. I’m trying to picture that area there. But they weren’t, they were probably, by that stage, probably about three times that distance or”. 4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “You know, sort of a bit more than, than that distance away”. 4078 “On the same side of the road?” Reply “The same side of the road as, yeah”. 4078 “And was there anything about the way he walked or the speed that he was walking that made you think he was about to change direction?” Reply “No, no, no, he was just sort of, just walking”. 4078 “So you are unable to say where he stopped or?” Reply “No, he was just walking on that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”. 4078 “So thinking then about the last glimpse you had of him, when you turned back and you saw him and you say he was not yet at the car park, he was on the same side of the road. Are you happy with the way you have described the lighting that there was a kind of an orangy tint?” Reply “Yeah, as much as I can remember. I mean, I don’t, it was, I’m sure it was, it was, it was dark, it was getting, it was fairly, I’m sure it was fairly, phew. I’m trying to think. Yeah, I’m sure it was fairly dark by that, it was, the street lights were definitely, I’m sure the street lights were definitely. I can’t say, but I think it was, I think it was getting fairly dark”.
4078 (inaudible) Reply “Yeah, fairly dark. I’m sure, phew, I might be completely wrong, but”. 4078 “As far as you can say at the moment, that is what you think?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “And again I am going to ask about cars”. Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Were there any, did you notice any cars around?” Reply “There were cars around but, phew, because you’ve often got them, say, sort of down this bit here. But I can’t remember what they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”. 4078 “No”. Reply “No”.
4078 “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?” Reply “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”. 4078 “And, what was I going to ask then. Yeah, if you were, you don’t need to say anything at the moment. But go back in your own mind and think of what you have just told me again”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “You have just concentrated on the visual aspect of what you saw”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “Go back over it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?” Reply “Phew, I can’t think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind, there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no, nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very quiet really around there”. 4078 “What about the man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?” Reply “No, not that I can remember”. 4078 “Not that you were conscious of?” Reply “No, no, not that I’m conscious of, no”. 4078 “Okay. So you have glimpsed, you know, turned back and see the man disappearing off down the road with the child and, at that time, didn’t really think anything of it other than the child might have cold feet?” Reply “Yeah, and just”. 4078 “And later on did you think it was significant?” Reply “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight. As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”. 4078 “So then you are back on track going to check Ella and Evie”. Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Tell me from there what happened?” Reply “So I just carried on walking the opposite way into and then walked through the car park and into our apartment through the back, through the roadside, the roadside door. And, like I say, I just went in, it was all, they were both, I actually went into the room and checked and they were both quiet. And then, as I say, I just walked straight back to the restaurant. I didn’t see anything. I didn’t see them there when I walked back, they weren’t, there was nobody that I spotted and Gerry and Jez had gone by that stage as well, I think they’d gone back into, well Gerry had obviously gone back into the restaurant and I don’t know where Jez had gone, but I didn’t see them again after, after that point”.
4078 “How long did it take you to check on your daughters?” Reply “I don’t know, (inaudible) question, erm, I was probably only in there, phew, a minute or a minute and a half literally. I’m trying to think if I went to the loo or anything and I don’t think I did, I think I just literally went in, erm, I don’t know. I think I literally went in and looked at them and then, and then went back. As I say I was almost conscious that it was just a quick check before, it sounds like I wasn’t bothering and I was desperate to get back for the food, but, you know, that was sort of just like a quick check before the food came”. 4078 “Yeah, okay. Right. So did you take the same route back to the Tapas Bar?” Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “And on the route back can you remember seeing anybody?” Reply “No, I have to say, not, not at all. And Gerry and Jez had gone by that time, so”. 4078 “And what was going through your mind as you walked back, anything, that you can remember?” Reply “Erm, no, I don’t think so. I mean, this person wasn’t really etched on my brain, it was just, erm, I think I was just thinking ‘Oh the kids are alright’, you know, ‘I’ll go back’”. 4078 “Tell me what happened then from there and I will try not to interrupt you?”
Reply “No, that’s fine. Erm, so I went back, erm, we just carried on with the meal. And then, I think, erm, I can’t remember anything odd, you know, within that, that time. And then I think, it’s been, I think, I can’t remember who said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’. And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’. As I say, I don’t know, I wasn’t really part of this, I don’t know how it, who actually said ‘It’s time for a check’, but I can remember sort of, erm, them saying to Kate ‘Oh do you want us to put our head in’. And I think because Gerry had only, you know, probably had been in there a bit longer, she probably thought ‘Oh yeah’, you know, and let them. I think Russ had checked earlier in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie. But I don’t want to say who checked with him because I don’t, I don’t know that, but”.
4078 “Yes, I mean, you know from what you did really”. Reply “Yeah, so, so Matt and Russell went back to, erm, to check and I think they went first to, I don’t know, whether they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door, whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside doors to do the checks, so. And that’s when Russell found Evie was awake so he stayed there with Evie. And then I think Matt checked on Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and then went back to the restaurant”. 4078 “During the time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?” Reply “Yeah, we were just sat at the table, yeah”. 4078 “And at what stage in the meal were you at then?”
Reply “Phew, that must have been just before the mains came I think. Because I think that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think it was just before the mains came. Because I know when Matt came back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’. And so I think wolfed down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ could come down and finish his. So I’m guessing it must have just been before the, before the mains came”. 4078 “And can you remember what was being spoken about at that stage?” Reply “Erm, no, I can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only thing I can think, that was just a, you know”. 4078 “So it was all good spirits?” Reply “Yeah, it was good spirits, it was like that joke again ‘Oh Jane’s got to go and relieve’, erm, so, yeah, there was nothing, you know, there was nothing odd or anything about it, it was just, just joking”. 4078 “And because it will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much had you drank that night?”
Reply “The thing is, that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway. And I hadn’t had, whereas normally I would have probably had a beer on the beach, I can actually remember”. 4078 “Orange juice”. Reply “It was an orange juice that we’d had on the beach. So, no, I wasn’t, at that, at, especially, well, I definitely roaring drunk at that point?” 4078 “And what about the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?” Reply “Erm, no, we just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so. I’ll tell you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us actually, which is quite”.
4078 “It’s coping with all those children around her”. Reply “Yeah, exactly. So, no, I mean, nobody was, nobody was that drunk that night at all”. 4078 “Right. And you already mentioned that you think it was that evening, earlier on in the meal, that Kate had mentioned that Madeleine had made that comment?” Reply “Yeah, the day before”. 4078 “About her and Sean being awake?” Reply “Yeah, the day before”. 4078 “And you also mentioned, I think, that that was the evening where you had all commented on how well the holiday was going?” Reply “Yeah, yeah, we’d, erm, it was, I think we’d all said it, because, well, as I say, the weather had been better, we had been to the beach and we’d just had a really nice day and it was almost like, you know, this is, you know, it’s been an ideal holiday for, you know, for all of us really at that point, so. There was no, you know, under currents of anything being wrong or anything, it was, it was just totally normal”. 4078 “Right. Okay. So Matthew has gone to check, Gerry has gone to check, you have gone to check and now Russell and Matthew went together to check?” Reply “Erm, yeah, so Matthew”.
4078 “Russell and?” Reply “Russell and Matthew went, yeah”. 4078 “And Russell ended up staying behind because Evie wasn’t very well?” Reply “Because Evie wasn’t, yeah, because she’d woken up”.
4078 “So you rushed your meal?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “So you could then relieve Russell?” Reply “Yeah, relieve Russell, yeah, sorry. I can see the headline there”. 4078 “Yeah. Okay. Do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back, other than telling you that Russell had stayed behind?” Reply “Erm, no, not that I can remember. He just, you know, he just, erm, I think Kate, I think maybe Kate said to him ‘Is everything alright’ and he said ‘Fine’, I think, you know. I mean, she was, I think I remember her saying to him, you know, ‘Is everything okay’, but that was nothing out of the ordinary. But, no, I can’t think, he just said, you know, he just said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s not very well’, you know, and the inevitable joke, you know”. 4078 “Yeah, a bit of innuendo”. Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “And then what happened next?” Reply “Erm, so I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away and keep that warm’. So I’d finished mine quite quickly, probably, I think I was a fair way through or it didn’t take another four minutes or five minutes, and then I went back, erm, to find Russell sort of, you know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Because that’s another thing about the sheets, but we’d been doing washing all week, because you know what it’s like with kids, you end up with, so they were in the washing machine. Erm, yeah, and then he, so I then, we were probably in there together for, I don’t know how long, five minutes of whatever, and then he went back to finish off the rest of, erm, well finish the rest of the meal”. 4078 “And what can you remember after that?”
Reply “Erm, well Evie was still up, so I was just with Evie in the room and I think it was getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’. So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines. So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone. Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to have left at, you know, left at that point, so. So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.
4078 “And what happened after that?” Reply “Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the roadside door. I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put my head out the roadside door. And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because she had run back I think to check that Grace was obviously okay. And then I think Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines. And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”.
4078 “It was that quick was it after you?” Reply “It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a bit odd. But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”. 4078 “So what happened from then?”
Reply “Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and what have you. And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’. I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say. So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’. And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching. They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”. 4078 “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”. 4078 “Who else did you speak to?” Reply “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”. 4078 “But you told the Police when they came?” Reply “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”. 4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
Reply “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning, erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then. I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone. So I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”. 4078 “Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of software they produced this image of”.
Reply “Yeah, they couldn’t do a face”. 4078 “It was a blank face, wasn’t it?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “With hair on?” Reply “With just a bit of”. 4078 “And you refer to that as the egg with hair?” Reply “That’s the egg with hair, yeah, sorry”. 4078 “Well I knew what it was but I thought somebody later on listening to this wouldn’t”. Reply “Yeah. No, so that’s”. 4078 “Right. How are you doing?” Reply “No, I’m alright”. 4078 “Are we carrying on?” Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “Do you want a break?” Reply “No, I’m fine, yeah, no”. 4078 “Do you want to go back over anything again?”
Reply “Erm, I don’t think so, because, I mean, to be honest, that part of the evening, between, erm, I can’t really, but I can remember seeing some of the Nannies, the only other thing I can remember probably before I spoke to the Police is some of the, I think when they realised she was missing, MARK WARNER sort of got everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies. And Evie was still up at that time because I can remember them sort of, you know, saying ‘Oh hi Evie’, blah, blah, blah. Erm, and I’m saying to them, you know, I was in a complete state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever, but, but I don’t, I can’t remember what time of night that is, but that might have been before the Police came as well or just after the Police, but they’re the only other real people I can remember talking to”. 4078 “Okay. Did you go to bed at all that night to get some sleep?” Reply “Not until, it was probably about, I think about half four’ish, yeah, we tried to, tried to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.
4078 “What about Russell (inaudible)?” Reply “Well him and Matt they were doing the, they were, I think they were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all. I think that they did come back and as I say I can’t remember when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they went off again. And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”. 4078 “Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?” Reply “That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”. 4078 “Okay. Well tell me about that part then, how did you come to go into Gerry and Kate’s apartment?” Reply “Well when the GNR people came, so the first lot of Police, the local Police came, erm, I spoke to them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something, she was doing the translating at that point. So I’d spoken to the GNR Police and then when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to them to say, to say what, what I’d seen. And then I can remember the same GNR person saying to me later on in the night ‘Oh have you spoken to the PJ’ and I had by that stage, so”. 4078 “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?” Reply “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.
4078 “And how was Gerry at that point?” Reply “Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught. And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there, I don’t know whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d tried to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing. So I think I did feel sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even though I didn’t know whether it was anything, but obviously you think ‘Oh bloody hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened potentially”. 4078 “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?” Reply “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified, so”. 4078 “And where was Kate?”
Reply “I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there. I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”. 4078 “Did you make any observations about, erm, did you go into the room where the children had been sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s?” Reply “No, no, I just literally went into the first bit, so here I think the PJ guy was sitting on a, the table was there, so I just literally sort of went into there and then out again”. 4078 “So you can’t comment on the positioning, the lighting or anything within the children’s room?” Reply “No, no, I didn’t, I’ve never been in that room at all”. 4078 “Okay. When was the next time you saw Kate?”
Reply “The next morning when we were being picked up by the PJ to be taken into, for the, for questioning. They had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, well decamped up to Dave and Fi’s room. There was lots of people running about and it was almost like, you know, I’ll just, not keep out of the way, but, you know, it was almost like, we didn’t feel we could, not we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but, you know, you just sort of, I don’t know how to say this, it almost sounds like we were keeping out of the way. which is not what I’m saying at all, but, you know, they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that well, so they’re closest to Dave and Fi, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the emotional side of it, I suppose, is the best way of putting it. And, again, you think I would be going ‘Oh I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen somebody’, but I’ve told the PJ, you know, and the thought of standing there and talking to Kate about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know, think about at that stage. So, you know, that’s, that’s why I hadn’t talked directly to them at that stage”.
4078 “And when was the first time you did talk directly to them about that?” Reply “Erm, well Gerry was there when I was, so, I mean, I knew he knew from that. I don’t, the first time, I think apart from, so we got picked up in the morning and taken to the Police Station and then they were all waiting, because I think my interview was the longest that day, so they were all there when I came out of my interview, so that was the next time, erm, I, I saw them, but, I mean, I don’t think we actually talked specifically about the person I saw at that point”. 4078 “Can you remember what Kate’s reaction was when you, well I am assuming now that somebody else would have given her the information?” Reply “Yeah, erm”.
4078 “Did you ever have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how you felt about what you had seen?” Reply “Not a, I mean, we hardly saw, in those first few days we hardly saw them at all really, you know, because they were so, they were busy obviously with the Press and with everything else, so I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was, it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told them directly what I’d seen. I think you, you know, you assume they know and I think at that stage I was still trying to convince myself that what I had seen hadn’t, didn’t have the significance which I think it did now, you know, and I think, I think that was sort of almost, I was hoping, you know, still hoping it didn’t have a significance”. 4078 “So you were kind of swept up in events after that I should imagine?” Reply “Umm”. 4078 “You were taken for interviews and you mentioned this surveillance thing, how long after?” Reply “Oh that was a long time”.
4078 “Did you have to go back to Portugal?” Reply “No, no, it wasn’t that, it wasn’t that long after, that was more than a week or so after, after all of this. I think, just going back a bit, over again, this is something, I think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this. And I’d actually read in a paper that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’, you know, because I’d, out of everything, I thought ‘Oh they weren’t just plain white’, I thought they had got some sort of thing on it. So I think it might have actually been the next morning, which would probably be the Saturday morning, I think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were like’. And that was, I think that was almost the moment when I couldn’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that, you know. And then that’s, again, it’s sort of sounds, in hindsight, it all sounds like a long period of time, but I think that was when I thought ‘No, that was definitely’, you know, when she described what they, it was almost like ‘Well that’s exactly what I have described to’, you know, ‘to the Police the day after’”.
4078 “So in your own mind you couldn’t quite talk yourself out of it”. Reply “No, that was then and, I mean, and Fi said she could see the, you know, the horror on my face as I sort of realised that, it was sort of then, that was like ‘Well, no, I can’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that because this is’. I mean, I think I was fairly certain anyway, but that was, I couldn’t convince myself then that it wasn’t”. 4078 “So the Friday was taken up with the Police basically?” Reply “Yeah, we were there, yeah, quite late and then I think we came back and the second lot went, so Russell and Fi and Dianne went I think when we got back”. 4078 “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?” Reply “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all. I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something, but, you know, and they were obviously so distraught, I mean, Kate was just crying, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t for a chat, you know, it was just sort of a, so there was, you know, it wasn’t the time, at that point it wasn’t the time when I felt like I could turn round and say ‘Oh what pyjamas was she wearing then’, I know that sounds ridiculous now, but”. 4078 “It didn’t feel appropriate?” Reply “It didn’t feel appropriate at the time that I saw her to, to ask that, you know, ask that question”. 4078 “How long did you end up staying in Portugal for?” Reply “It was two weeks”. 4078 “So you were due back on, you were due to have flown back on the Saturday, the fifth?” Reply “The Saturday, yeah, and we flew back on, well the Thursday, it was actually two weeks from the day, from the third, so, whatever”. 4078 “About the seventeenth?” Reply “Yeah, about the seventeenth, yeah”.
Heribert Genreith
